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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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I worked with that on the podcast that's

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so sneak peek behind the scenes of a

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podcast you can all hear me okay all

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right hello and welcome to the skeptics

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own podcast episode number 589 for the

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27th of January 2020 this week coming to

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you live from Portland Oregon

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[Applause]

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that's the sasquatch right you brought

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one hand it's wonderful to be here I'm

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about to give a talk about mystical

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energies and strange things like that

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but coming up on this week's show lots

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more from Maynard more interviews from

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skeptic on and we have the hot tub of

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truth now yesterday at Bryan Dunning's

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house in his hot tub we had a group of

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scientists and thinkers and some wine

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and we recorded a session of science and

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philosophy in the hot tub that's coming

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up on this week's show and if you all

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sound amazed out there you don't want to

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come this time yeah and as a special I

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don't often do this the show this week

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will be in stereo so if you listen

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through the headphones it would be like

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you're in the hot tub with us

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that's what listening for so all that

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coming up on this week's show but for

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now it's time for me to well to get on

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with my talk and while I do that I hope

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you enjoy the skeptic zone

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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join us now for drinking skeptically in

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the think tank there are stranger things

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to do than to sit in hot tub in the

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state of Oregon with somebody with a

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thermal camera running around it's

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nighttime it's not quite freely is it

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Brian Dunning from skeptoid comm no it

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is not it is extraordinarily warm

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tonight we've lost most of our snow

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today which I was very disappointed

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about me too to be honest me too I'm in

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a hot tub folks we're doing skeptics in

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the tub or as Maynard likes to call it

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the hot tub of truth

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Brian is gathered a group of interesting

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people to join us in our tub and one of

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the most interesting things is the life

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is variant here so I'm doing everything

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we have jean-marc welcome John mark

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thank you and who is a neuroscientist

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yes we also very lucky to have dr. Erica

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Anderson hello hello a new work in local

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hospitals here I do thank you

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all right we also have professor Wendy

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physics professor Wendy was my daughter

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Erica's physics professor and local

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skeptic Susan pecan hello shifting our

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positions here because we're making

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jokes about Archimedes just a little

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public but anyway everybody cheers and

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welcome to the hunt ups here

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not quite the same with plastic glasses

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Brydon we are now this is sort of like

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the think tank and long-term listeners

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to the skeptic zone podcast remember

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think tank will get together at the top

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of the industry have a few beers have

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some dinner and chat about sceptical

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issues of the day but a listener to the

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show is inspired to make series of

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questions and thoughts and the first one

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is they'll put to everybody here there's

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a very interesting question

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can science save the planet slash

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humanity should we leave it up to

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science to save our problems maybe the

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environment things like that Wendy why

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don't you pick up for that one I have a

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follow-up question are you saying like

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in an ideal world uh I mean yeah I think

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they're two different questions is

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science capable with the tools it has to

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solve the big problems yeah it's society

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open-minded enough to and educated

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enough to know what to do with that

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information to then further you know

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inform policy and funding and those

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sorts of things I mean that's I think in

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my head I don't know the answer to that

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I'm hopeful do you think I'll put it up

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to everybody you think that there's some

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people out there say don't worry science

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Oh solve the problems eventually don't

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worry if we do this that or the other I

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think absolutely I think it's more

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complicated than that it's like when

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they said I think we need to have as a

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society we need to have the desire to

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save ourselves from ourselves

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but if we if we have that desire at a

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society level then yes I think science

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can do it absolutely

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what should we do in the mean time I

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mean we can't just wait no changes

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within our culture there's a very fixed

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mindset about it'll be solved I don't

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a scale issue like all rights just me so

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I can't solve it exactly it's just the

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energy yeah I feel that

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economic theory has a big role to play

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there because economists can figure out

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what will work and what kinds of things

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will force the changes that we need the

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the interesting thing that that leads

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into though is ok now you've got to have

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some sort of a totalitarian government

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who will just take the economists

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policies and force them into law on and

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make that be the law of the land and

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then the next administration is going to

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come along and do who knows what with

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that same totalitarian power so it's

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it's it's one of these kind of it's one

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a situations where there's there's just

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no perfect solution yeah well I suppose

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the question is put it in thinking about

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the globally you know I mean the way the

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planets going at the moment and I guess

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the answer is no we can't sit back and

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just think oh the science will fix it

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it'll be all right

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it doesn't matter we all have to do what

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we can you know regardless but I wear

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science I guess where science could be

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said to be fixing things more and more

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is in your field

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erricka which is medicine mm-hm and even

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when I think back over the last 10 20

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years and you know better than I of

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course I think the advancements in

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medical medical science have been a

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standard oh definitely definitely

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it's yeah it's progressed immensely yeah

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but to save the planet Eire do you trust

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humanity that's a good question it's not

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just a thing of science how much

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influence do scientists really have over

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people and what's happening is it more a

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question of politics you know as does

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politics have more influence like in the

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history you always see like you know

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Renaissance oh my god episode of science

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and then like Dark Ages right so when

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when science does not have very much

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influence over people so you know that's

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a compressor science has been I do at

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the women politics and politicians to it

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next time yeah I know in my own country

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of Australia for many years I'm not sure

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what the situation now is we didn't have

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a minister for science for some reason

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and everyone thought that was a bit

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crazy Wow yeah yeah do we have a

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minister for science well you would

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science advisor yeah same technology

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advisers and I think early on in the

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administration

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pretty much everyone with any science

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background got sure what I'm not even

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sure if there is a what would you call

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it it's been so long I don't even know

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what the position is called but this

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colloquially we called the president's

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science advisor he's got an actual title

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it's like the chairman of the committee

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on yeah science and technology or

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something well we don't straight into

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politics much on the skeptic zone but in

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this case it's appropriate I think I

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wonder how far a scientific adviser

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would get in the current White House

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very funny well let me ask a question

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would it would it help if in elementary

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school middle high high school if kids

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were taught critical thinking skills and

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not just like you know what are the

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Socratic questions but actual real-world

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how do we analyze Gwyneth Paltrow's goop

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how do we know what's actually real that

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do I have a bit to say about that

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because when I studied in grad school I

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did I was in the physics department I

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did astrophysics but I studied brains

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and how they wired to learn physics

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mm-hm

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and one of the my research questions was

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how do students belief in solving

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physics problems like what what they're

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supposed to do affect like how

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successful they are in a physics class

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and what we've found through lots of

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studies where that students come in very

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authoritarian thinking like my job isn't

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to be a critical thinker it's to

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memorize something somebody else has

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told me and what we found is those

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students will not be successful in

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science engineering or math technology

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students so it's been like kind of the

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push of at least my class to kind of get

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them while we still can in college but

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the idea is it should not be happening

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in college these sorts of I love you

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thought she was sooner and they're just

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kind of not and so everybody's falling

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into that authoritarian just I'll trust

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what you say and I'm not going I don't

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need to even look into it further to

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feel like I understand it like I feel

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okay with somebody telling me and my

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assessment of that is open I understand

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it I don't need to go further you know

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and I think that gets at a root of like

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so many problems in education but

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politics and so histologically that's a

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good really good point so I don't know

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how probably all of these people in this

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hot tub in school it was way easier for

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me to memorize something that was

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logical that I could like kind of

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logically see my way through then just a

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memorize right so I don't know is it is

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it somehow like a predisposition of

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certain people to be able to be critical

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Oh in the years I see it happen I've

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dated my for my thesis and shows that if

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you build it right and you emphasize it

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appropriately and you you really kind of

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make sure it across every point in that

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class for instance that they're being

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challenged to be critical and and that

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then memorizing fails that you set them

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up over and over to feel it's gleefully

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fun you need to think but like yeah it

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works but it takes time effort and

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training and that's kind of what's

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tricky is it teachers you know I got

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lucky to get that training early on and

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a lot of people haven't and so wouldn't

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move these students don't get that

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training they statistically really

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struggle June here and any sort of stem

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field and then believe and then we are

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in the same place yeah people who don't

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know how to quickly think I'm interested

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because I I think that one of the

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aspects of critical thinking I like is

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it's so interesting because the topics

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in my field of skepticism I get to cover

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other really interesting things like are

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they ghosts and UFOs and monsters and

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how their people bend spoons and what is

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this pseudoscience and that's what

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really helped me become the critical

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thinker was the sheer curiosity and that

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stirred something in me you know it's

274
00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:15,779
the interest of passion I think oh no

275
00:13:18,650 --> 00:13:17,339
absolutely I just wanted to say with

276
00:13:21,139 --> 00:13:18,660
just talking about a little bit about

277
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:21,149
the education system and then going back

278
00:13:25,579 --> 00:13:23,610
to the original question of how do you

279
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:25,589
think science could save us some of the

280
00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:26,730
issues that we're having with the

281
00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:29,790
environment and climate change I think

282
00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:31,020
again going back

283
00:13:47,330 --> 00:13:45,440
trained to be critical thinkers and were

284
00:13:49,790 --> 00:13:47,340
just fed a bunch of information so I

285
00:13:51,890 --> 00:13:49,800
know from personally speaking I went to

286
00:13:54,890 --> 00:13:51,900
Catholic school for eight years and I

287
00:13:56,510 --> 00:13:54,900
learned absolutely nothing I had to

288
00:14:00,140 --> 00:13:56,520
memorize things that I had questions

289
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,150
about and I'm slow at memorizing and it

290
00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:02,880
just never taught me how to think

291
00:14:07,220 --> 00:14:05,160
critically I just authoritarian you just

292
00:14:10,940 --> 00:14:07,230
do what everyone told me and I think

293
00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:10,950
that a lot of our issues can kind of

294
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:13,230
stem from the educational systems not

295
00:14:20,090 --> 00:14:17,310
only in the US but abroad where they

296
00:14:22,130 --> 00:14:20,100
teach to one mindset or one brain type

297
00:14:23,660 --> 00:14:22,140
and there's this huge bell curve and

298
00:14:26,270 --> 00:14:23,670
variables of well you're a

299
00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:26,280
neuroscientist correct that people learn

300
00:14:29,330 --> 00:14:27,510
differently and there's so many

301
00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:29,340
different ways of learning but yet most

302
00:14:33,230 --> 00:14:31,380
schools are like here take this

303
00:14:34,940 --> 00:14:33,240
information regurgitate it out and I

304
00:14:36,860 --> 00:14:34,950
think that we from the start

305
00:14:38,300 --> 00:14:36,870
learned how to be critical and to think

306
00:14:39,980 --> 00:14:38,310
through some of these problems we didn't

307
00:14:42,020 --> 00:14:39,990
have some of these issues in our own

308
00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:42,030
society if we were educated properly

309
00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:45,350
yeah and and and that can come down to a

310
00:14:57,830 --> 00:14:47,580
particularly good teacher parent

311
00:15:01,130 --> 00:14:57,840
yeah inspiring teachers like Wendi is at

312
00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:01,140
a university here in Oregon and she's

313
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:04,320
studying physics and one of the things

314
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,050
that she got I guess hooked up with

315
00:15:12,170 --> 00:15:09,120
that's not the right word but hooked

316
00:15:15,830 --> 00:15:12,180
hooked on hooked on not look I don't

317
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:15,840
know what your kind of thing is that

318
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:19,440
they they gave the problem and said now

319
00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:21,450
figure it out and use whatever physics

320
00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:23,250
you need to figure the problem out so

321
00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:25,920
like trying to teach the you know the

322
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:27,750
critical thinking oh I have to pull from

323
00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:30,180
here and here and here and she struggled

324
00:15:36,460 --> 00:15:33,240
because in high school she regurgitate

325
00:15:39,550 --> 00:15:36,470
it exactly what is

326
00:15:41,290 --> 00:15:39,560
oh my gosh what do I do and so she went

327
00:15:43,810 --> 00:15:41,300
to office hours and she just kept

328
00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:43,820
persevering and the teachers like I have

329
00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:45,500
to kind of reprogram your brain a little

330
00:15:50,139 --> 00:15:47,540
bit she's getting it now but it's been a

331
00:15:51,999 --> 00:15:50,149
huge learning curve so I think like we

332
00:15:54,370 --> 00:15:52,009
have to back up even further into middle

333
00:15:57,180 --> 00:15:54,380
school okay elementary arts it's Bailey

334
00:15:59,379 --> 00:15:57,190
entry yeah way back now to kindergarten

335
00:16:01,569 --> 00:15:59,389
but I'd say middle school is when they

336
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:01,579
start giving you well here memorize this

337
00:16:04,930 --> 00:16:03,290
yeah and then hi Janet I was like here

338
00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:04,940
memorize this this and this and then oh

339
00:16:10,449 --> 00:16:06,500
by the way here's the real world and

340
00:16:12,699 --> 00:16:10,459
everyone goes I can't do it yes I guess

341
00:16:14,949 --> 00:16:12,709
won't memorization in the garden as well

342
00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:14,959
these are you entering abc15 after me

343
00:16:19,449 --> 00:16:17,420
don't know when the brain exactly is

344
00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:19,459
ready to do to start doing critical

345
00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:22,190
thinking I finish elementary might be a

346
00:16:29,259 --> 00:16:27,110
little yeah there was a lot of kids

347
00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:29,269
entities yeah some kids already very

348
00:16:36,759 --> 00:16:32,060
early on and others feel they they

349
00:16:38,650 --> 00:16:36,769
become adults yes so I see that and and

350
00:16:41,769 --> 00:16:38,660
there are still some people actually

351
00:16:44,470 --> 00:16:41,779
later in life they they know knew like

352
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:44,480
critical thinking if even if you tell

353
00:16:49,710 --> 00:16:46,490
them all the benefit they can get from

354
00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:49,720
thinking critically they would rather

355
00:16:55,569 --> 00:16:53,569
sit down and and have somebody tell them

356
00:16:57,309 --> 00:16:55,579
okay today you're gonna wear this shirt

357
00:17:00,400 --> 00:16:57,319
and you're gonna button it up all the

358
00:17:03,250 --> 00:17:00,410
way and you allowed to do pull the

359
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:03,260
sleeves or not you know they they want

360
00:17:11,620 --> 00:17:06,650
everything be laid out for them thinking

361
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:11,630
critically is it's an effort they have

362
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:13,760
to realize the benefit they can get from

363
00:17:21,189 --> 00:17:16,400
it and then they will be ready to to put

364
00:17:30,210 --> 00:17:21,199
on the effort that it takes also feels

365
00:17:34,210 --> 00:17:30,220
good because it feels loved really older

366
00:17:38,919 --> 00:17:34,220
all of us indistinct thank and water

367
00:17:40,780 --> 00:17:38,929
tank actually it does feel good but but

368
00:17:44,110 --> 00:17:40,790
I know some people who actually feel

369
00:17:47,289 --> 00:17:44,120
good with just the opposite let the

370
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:47,299
thinking done by others and they sit

371
00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:48,050
back and

372
00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:50,090
and that's it what series I have

373
00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:52,430
engineering majors who think will just

374
00:17:57,430 --> 00:17:55,460
tell me and I'm like that's your job to

375
00:17:59,200 --> 00:17:57,440
solve very difficult problems I have to

376
00:18:00,040 --> 00:17:59,210
tell them literally and it's like

377
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,050
they've never thought about it like

378
00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:02,240
nobody pays you the big bucks to solve

379
00:18:07,390 --> 00:18:04,400
problems that are who global mmm-hmm

380
00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:07,400
that's not your job that's just not your

381
00:18:11,050 --> 00:18:08,630
job your job is to take things that

382
00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:11,060
nobody knows how to solve and critically

383
00:18:15,310 --> 00:18:13,190
think fly your knowledge and construct

384
00:18:17,170 --> 00:18:15,320
some new unique answer that you can't

385
00:18:18,340 --> 00:18:17,180
just get from somebody else and some of

386
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:18,350
them it's like the first time they ever

387
00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:20,210
thought about that and it's interesting

388
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:21,680
cuz they'll fight me on it for like a

389
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:24,170
full year of physics and I'm like that's

390
00:18:28,660 --> 00:18:27,110
the antithesis of engineering it's not

391
00:18:29,980 --> 00:18:28,670
thinking you know like I just can't it's

392
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:29,990
the strangest thing so it's almost like

393
00:18:33,580 --> 00:18:31,250
they don't even know that that's a

394
00:18:36,970 --> 00:18:33,590
required part of these fields or

395
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,980
building expertise or I don't know it

396
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:38,720
kind of blows my mind still so I'm

397
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:40,310
usually that jerk who has to just

398
00:18:51,250 --> 00:18:46,730
realize there are some people who are

399
00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:51,260
afraid of uncertainty and and science

400
00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:54,260
you know science likes uncertainty and

401
00:18:59,380 --> 00:18:56,330
asking more questions analyze we

402
00:19:01,090 --> 00:18:59,390
basically have that we were curious

403
00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:01,100
about everything yeah because we like

404
00:19:07,150 --> 00:19:04,910
uncertainty but some people don't like

405
00:19:09,070 --> 00:19:07,160
uncertainty they want things to be set

406
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:09,080
in stone forever and they never have to

407
00:19:15,340 --> 00:19:11,690
question it so I think what we're up

408
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:15,350
against is is really to do to foster

409
00:19:20,410 --> 00:19:17,570
that desire among people to to become

410
00:19:23,610 --> 00:19:20,420
critical thinkers and I think like Ryan

411
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:23,620
said earlier it has to start with kids

412
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:25,730
because they are much more malleable

413
00:19:35,049 --> 00:19:29,200
than ever and many times is simply

414
00:19:39,239 --> 00:19:37,330
yes there are curriculum out there based

415
00:19:42,249 --> 00:19:39,249
on like particularly K through five

416
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:42,259
really just inquiry based where they're

417
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:45,710
just given a context to study and then

418
00:19:50,049 --> 00:19:47,120
they can each pick their jobs within

419
00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:50,059
that stuff yeah so like there's a forest

420
00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:51,980
it's really cool there's no forest

421
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:54,230
behind your school and you are going to

422
00:19:59,169 --> 00:19:56,330
map the forest out figure out when all

423
00:20:00,610 --> 00:19:59,179
the plants are categorize them and and

424
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:00,620
in document that so some students like

425
00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:02,090
the documentation like they like to be

426
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:03,529
the person documented some students like

427
00:20:07,389 --> 00:20:05,840
to be the people investigating and what

428
00:20:09,489 --> 00:20:07,399
happens is they pretty naturally engage

429
00:20:12,659 --> 00:20:09,499
themselves in science the problem is

430
00:20:15,609 --> 00:20:12,669
that is really in an infrastructure way

431
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:15,619
extremely difficult to do it's hard to

432
00:20:20,139 --> 00:20:17,360
train teachers to do it it's hard to fit

433
00:20:30,999 --> 00:20:20,149
within our BS that's as much as all

434
00:20:32,470 --> 00:20:31,009
class but it's really hard to fit in

435
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:32,480
within the constraints of what these

436
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:34,159
teachers are forced to do with in terms

437
00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:35,570
of teaching to the tests and the

438
00:20:38,379 --> 00:20:36,950
standardized testing all that stuff so

439
00:20:41,019 --> 00:20:38,389
there are really great curriculum out

440
00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:41,029
there it's just like we're not right how

441
00:20:45,129 --> 00:20:43,220
do you get it distilled into the entire

442
00:20:46,659 --> 00:20:45,139
population of teachers and the policy is

443
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:46,669
to change in terms of what they have to

444
00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:52,730
do and that's we've got good ideas how

445
00:20:57,039 --> 00:20:54,100
do you know Graham the whole society

446
00:20:59,169 --> 00:20:57,049
know that's getting it know it know that

447
00:21:01,090 --> 00:20:59,179
kind of correlates with neuroscience

448
00:21:02,859 --> 00:21:01,100
it's like you get to a certain age and

449
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:02,869
you have neurons that are like firing up

450
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:04,850
in the brain that have been firing up

451
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:06,470
for a really long time and to change

452
00:21:11,409 --> 00:21:08,690
that pattern of behavior same thing with

453
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:11,419
society it's harder but it's done they

454
00:21:17,230 --> 00:21:14,570
can't be last is much more blessed agree

455
00:21:19,779 --> 00:21:17,240
you society is also plastic but we're

456
00:21:21,460 --> 00:21:19,789
not exercising that at all to change

457
00:21:23,109 --> 00:21:21,470
some of these things that Brian knows a

458
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:23,119
lot about this because he's got very old

459
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:30,080
neurons I must say we move on to the

460
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:32,570
next lesson to question behavior Wendy

461
00:21:37,790 --> 00:21:34,490
when you when you arrived this evening

462
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:37,800
set alone we all admired your wonderful

463
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:40,770
yes which had telescopes and everything

464
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:42,690
the SETI Allen telescope array on the

465
00:21:59,960 --> 00:21:57,320
this is a completely free plug

466
00:22:02,510 --> 00:21:59,970
well that website if people would like

467
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:02,520
to have a look and see some of the

468
00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:03,690
wonderful things that you will learn

469
00:22:08,780 --> 00:22:05,880
today where should they go that's the

470
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:08,790
best nerdy clothing website I found it's

471
00:22:21,490 --> 00:22:15,510
so it's SVA H a usa.com lately if it's a

472
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:21,500
word it's Faja or not so but it's great

473
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:24,210
generating nerdy clothing and jewelry

474
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:29,730
and dresses with pockets to open because

475
00:23:00,560 --> 00:22:40,180
oh yeah sure game my girlfriend's

476
00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:00,570
necklace we the next question and this

477
00:23:03,350 --> 00:23:02,040
can be the last question for tonight if

478
00:23:05,270 --> 00:23:03,360
you some show this will spark some

479
00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:05,280
interesting conversation comes to us

480
00:23:10,550 --> 00:23:07,940
from Michelle because ma who is the

481
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:10,560
secretary of the Victorian skeptics the

482
00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:14,650
big skeptics in Australia and she asks

483
00:23:30,060 --> 00:23:26,830
my glasses are fogging up with what kind

484
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:30,070
of studies should university students do

485
00:23:37,049 --> 00:23:33,330
to realistically help save the planet

486
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:37,059
where our careers headed and what kind

487
00:23:43,950 --> 00:23:41,110
of graduates are needed so if we're

488
00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:43,960
talking about the recent worldwide

489
00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:47,080
movement against global warming and

490
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:49,390
basically saving the planet if we can

491
00:23:57,390 --> 00:23:54,910
use that term what is good obviously

492
00:23:59,040 --> 00:23:57,400
STEM fields in problem-solving but you

493
00:24:01,020 --> 00:23:59,050
also meet a lot of communicators you

494
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:01,030
need political science you need

495
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:02,530
sociologists I mean it's kind of

496
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:04,570
everybody is yeah I don't know that you

497
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:06,130
could just pick out one set of fields

498
00:24:08,970 --> 00:24:07,600
and say that they're spear I mean also

499
00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:08,980
we need a funnel one I get money into

500
00:24:16,350 --> 00:24:10,840
science but like we said if we're not

501
00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:16,360
figuring out how to get social change at

502
00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:18,700
the interface of politics social science

503
00:24:22,830 --> 00:24:21,820
and health science communication ended

504
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:22,840
education

505
00:24:28,549 --> 00:24:25,690
so if you have somebody who can master

506
00:24:33,660 --> 00:24:28,559
the interface of is more disciplines

507
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:33,670
then that's exactly from what we've seen

508
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:36,010
in medicine is that the most progress is

509
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:38,650
done by people that major in two

510
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:41,050
different fields like I'd say that there

511
00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:43,450
is a doctor and an engineer and then

512
00:24:48,150 --> 00:24:46,360
they go into bio prosthetic you know and

513
00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:48,160
they develop this arm that's like

514
00:24:52,890 --> 00:24:50,830
mechanical and because it means both it

515
00:24:55,110 --> 00:24:52,900
looks like if people go into one field

516
00:24:58,950 --> 00:24:55,120
it's really hard to make progress

517
00:25:01,290 --> 00:24:58,960
further in that field but if people go

518
00:25:02,970 --> 00:25:01,300
into two fields all of the sudden you

519
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:02,980
know they can merge the two fields and

520
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:05,050
make some really great progress it's a

521
00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:15,000
like my student think oh I'll just be a

522
00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:16,720
scientist locked away in a room and I

523
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:18,070
won't have to talk to anybody or I'll be

524
00:25:21,630 --> 00:25:19,330
an engineer and never speak to anybody

525
00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:21,640
no if you can't communicate your ideas

526
00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:23,920
then they're not going no like that has

527
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:25,540
to be a vital part they always complain

528
00:25:29,460 --> 00:25:27,250
they have to take speech and writing and

529
00:25:31,830 --> 00:25:29,470
I'm like that's gonna be 40 50 percent

530
00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:31,840
of your job you know I think we lose

531
00:25:36,049 --> 00:25:33,910
that and like talking about what what

532
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:36,059
thing what skills are important

533
00:25:39,150 --> 00:25:38,110
communication should be an integral part

534
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:39,160
of science

535
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:41,760
you should start that at kindergarten

536
00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:44,730
but also maybe psychology yeah

537
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:47,500
psychology is super-important just just

538
00:25:52,860 --> 00:25:49,840
to like read each other and read society

539
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:52,870
and well it's such a common issue I

540
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:54,880
suppose there's no real one area which

541
00:25:59,310 --> 00:25:56,880
you could say you should go into this

542
00:26:01,799 --> 00:25:59,320
because there are many areas you get

543
00:26:05,250 --> 00:26:01,809
well you just obviously this kind of

544
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:05,260
prompt my usual lecture on stem versus

545
00:26:10,140 --> 00:26:07,690
steam which is kind of one of my one of

546
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:10,150
my hot buttons the reason we have stem

547
00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:12,100
initiatives and not steam initiatives is

548
00:26:15,539 --> 00:26:14,350
because the United States anyway I don't

549
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:15,549
know about Australia but the United

550
00:26:20,340 --> 00:26:17,370
States has a strategic shortage of

551
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:20,350
graduates with stem degrees and a

552
00:26:25,260 --> 00:26:22,510
surplus of graduates and Arts degrees

553
00:26:29,250 --> 00:26:25,270
Art's being basically lawyers and

554
00:26:30,870 --> 00:26:29,260
business majors but also the humanities

555
00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:30,880
and visual and the Performing Arts but

556
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:33,340
there's too many graduates with those

557
00:26:37,140 --> 00:26:35,530
and not enough jobs for them we're in

558
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:37,150
the STEM fields there's not enough

559
00:26:41,610 --> 00:26:39,370
graduates and too many jobs so that's

560
00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:41,620
why they have stem initiatives but

561
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:43,750
whenever I make that lecture people

562
00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:45,760
always they kind of throw a straw man

563
00:26:49,289 --> 00:26:47,260
argument what I just said they say oh

564
00:26:51,690 --> 00:26:49,299
you're saying arts aren't important and

565
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:51,700
people shouldn't study arts that's not

566
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:53,530
what we say and going back to your point

567
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:56,250
okay about how you shouldn't specialize

568
00:27:00,510 --> 00:26:58,450
the stem initiatives they just encourage

569
00:27:03,030 --> 00:27:00,520
you to the degree that you graduate with

570
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,040
should be a stem degree but hopefully

571
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:04,960
you will have had a very broad field of

572
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:08,290
study with all these kinds of diversions

573
00:27:13,310 --> 00:27:10,890
into the more artistic area

574
00:27:15,289 --> 00:27:13,320
as a scientist art has very much

575
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:15,299
influenced my thinking and my abilities

576
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:17,910
musician I dance if I didn't do those

577
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:19,290
things and graduate school I would have

578
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:21,360
not got a PhD in physics

579
00:27:27,380 --> 00:27:25,290
I did not like I think it's it's part of

580
00:27:30,980 --> 00:27:27,390
your body wiring I think that the

581
00:27:37,970 --> 00:27:30,990
greatest scientists history of science I

582
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:37,980
mean look at the Vinci it was an artist

583
00:27:43,610 --> 00:27:40,350
too he played the violin and yes you

584
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:43,620
know history is full of great scientists

585
00:28:04,789 --> 00:27:46,710
who who have a very keen artistic side

586
00:28:06,409 --> 00:28:04,799
but Brian Dunning sings because you're

587
00:28:08,659 --> 00:28:06,419
right few people going into STEM fields

588
00:28:10,909 --> 00:28:08,669
but I think it gets more at a lot of

589
00:28:12,650 --> 00:28:10,919
this sort of not letting them them not

590
00:28:14,539 --> 00:28:12,660
learning to critically think and then

591
00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:14,549
they're being completely swayed away

592
00:28:17,690 --> 00:28:16,350
from going into science and having them

593
00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:17,700
you know that feeling imposter syndrome

594
00:28:22,010 --> 00:28:19,320
we're getting half into it and leaving

595
00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:22,020
that happens all the time and usually

596
00:28:24,289 --> 00:28:23,190
what happens is junior year they don't

597
00:28:26,270 --> 00:28:24,299
have to critically think they're

598
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:26,280
suddenly asked to and they'll eat right

599
00:28:30,049 --> 00:28:28,320
they're like this isn't for me I'm not

600
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:30,059
smart enough I'm going so I wonder it

601
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:32,370
like there's more systemic issues of

602
00:28:37,310 --> 00:28:34,770
foot then I you know so I am I don't

603
00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:37,320
mind the steam thing art was hugely

604
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:38,940
important in my life and I'm lucky that

605
00:28:41,930 --> 00:28:40,320
I went to a public school where there

606
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:41,940
was a lot of art supporting because the

607
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:43,530
ones around me didn't have it but if

608
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:45,360
your degree was in dance would you be a

609
00:28:55,549 --> 00:28:47,730
physics professor right now I teach a

610
00:29:04,369 --> 00:28:55,559
physics of dancing at COC CEO in town

611
00:29:08,460 --> 00:29:06,810
I'm a question I don't think I'd have

612
00:29:10,259 --> 00:29:08,470
gotten through grad school I was in a

613
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,269
band and I dance a lot and that was the

614
00:29:14,669 --> 00:29:12,159
necessary kind of outlet my brain needed

615
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:14,679
and to solve their problems because you

616
00:29:18,090 --> 00:29:16,330
know problems ourself with focus somehow

617
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:18,100
if they're diffusely solved and you're

618
00:29:22,529 --> 00:29:20,080
switching gears that I yeah that other

619
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,539
activity brought about like lots of

620
00:29:27,049 --> 00:29:24,399
really beneficial things in my mind and

621
00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:27,059
sanity as well in grad school that's

622
00:29:31,590 --> 00:29:30,220
more than one yeah and so I don't know

623
00:29:34,259 --> 00:29:31,600
if I don't know if I'd have gotten a PhD

624
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:34,269
without dancing and playing well sweet I

625
00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:36,610
like that it's really yeah four years

626
00:29:41,039 --> 00:29:38,500
ago I think I had travelled from Sydney

627
00:29:43,259 --> 00:29:41,049
to Canberra to to see a lecture and I

628
00:29:45,690 --> 00:29:43,269
don't often do this and the reason why

629
00:29:46,129 --> 00:29:45,700
it was because the lecturer was Alan

630
00:29:51,950 --> 00:29:46,139
Alda

631
00:29:57,950 --> 00:29:55,680
he gave it talk about science and art

632
00:30:01,080 --> 00:29:57,960
being long-lost lovers

633
00:30:03,659 --> 00:30:01,090
oh yeah and he doesn't podcast now and

634
00:30:05,310 --> 00:30:03,669
he's a great scientific inspiration

635
00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:05,320
element people just think of him as

636
00:30:10,649 --> 00:30:07,120
Hawkeye for a match or some funny movies

637
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:10,659
or whatever but he is passion in life is

638
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:11,710
science

639
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:14,289
it really is but Celine sonatas long

640
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:17,440
lost lovers yeah wonderful yeah I find

641
00:30:21,450 --> 00:30:19,360
parallels in teaching they're both all

642
00:30:22,889 --> 00:30:21,460
the time yeah where they're both solving

643
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:22,899
different kinds of problems in very

644
00:30:28,110 --> 00:30:25,360
similar ways by applying some concept to

645
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:28,120
a particular either physical situation

646
00:30:32,009 --> 00:30:30,129
or piece of music and trying to develop

647
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:32,019
that into their own unique and a

648
00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:34,450
solution or statement I I love having

649
00:30:39,629 --> 00:30:38,529
the the to kind of I don't know I like

650
00:30:41,910 --> 00:30:39,639
that they're lovers I remember that

651
00:30:44,010 --> 00:30:41,920
intertwine in their own way

652
00:30:48,150 --> 00:30:44,020
very poetic and then I get excited when

653
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:48,160
you have a band NERD day and my two

654
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:50,290
passions in one place and then they all

655
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:51,910
just like wow you're it over now and

656
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:54,850
it's I think that's a wonderful thought

657
00:31:04,730 --> 00:30:56,770
to leave our listeners with that science

658
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:04,740
cannot are indeed long-lost lovers oh

659
00:31:09,390 --> 00:31:07,210
what a pleasant evening this has been in

660
00:31:12,420 --> 00:31:09,400
the arrogance no there is no look all

661
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:12,430
around us this snow melts and then being

662
00:31:19,260 --> 00:31:15,370
beautiful old tree look at that that is

663
00:31:21,450 --> 00:31:19,270
beautiful tree tree well I'd like to

664
00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:21,460
thank John monk thank you very much when

665
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:25,000
I kept them desert I'd certainly like to

666
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:26,320
thank Garriga thank you very much hey

667
00:31:29,810 --> 00:31:28,330
here welcome it's my notes I'm sorry my

668
00:31:34,590 --> 00:31:29,820
pleasure

669
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:34,600
Wendy thank you indeed Susan thanks for

670
00:32:06,000 --> 00:31:50,530
having me and the refills I must say and

671
00:32:13,850 --> 00:32:06,010
Brian Dunning from skip guitar from

672
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:21,640
[Music]

673
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:30,320
Canberra skeptics proudly presents a

674
00:32:38,060 --> 00:32:33,890
contemporary look at scams in Australia

675
00:32:41,890 --> 00:32:38,070
Thursday the 13th of February 2026 p.m.

676
00:32:43,780 --> 00:32:41,900
to 7:30 p.m. the speaker is Alex meanly

677
00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:43,790
[Music]

678
00:32:48,530 --> 00:32:45,990
now this will be at the Belconnen

679
00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:48,540
community service 26 Chandler Street

680
00:32:55,070 --> 00:32:52,980
Belconnen a CT and the cost is free scam

681
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:55,080
watch run by the Australian Competition

682
00:33:01,880 --> 00:32:58,170
and Consumer Commission a Triple C

683
00:33:03,950 --> 00:33:01,890
receives around 500 reports of scams

684
00:33:06,650 --> 00:33:03,960
from the public every day

685
00:33:09,860 --> 00:33:06,660
Alex meanly will provide an overview of

686
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:09,870
what scams affected Australians the most

687
00:33:16,820 --> 00:33:13,380
in 2019 and are affecting Australians in

688
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:16,830
early 2020 how they work and how scams

689
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:19,490
can be detected there will be a queue a

690
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:22,080
discussion of some of the stranger scams

691
00:33:27,740 --> 00:33:25,050
we've seen reported and an explanation

692
00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:27,750
of the government's latest measures to

693
00:33:33,350 --> 00:33:31,350
stop scams alex is an assistant director

694
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:33,360
in the Australian Competition and

695
00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:36,870
Consumer Commission scam watch dinner

696
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:40,140
will follow the lecture to RSVP for the

697
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:42,720
dinner please e-mail canberra skeptics

698
00:33:46,850 --> 00:33:44,490
at gmail.com

699
00:33:49,220 --> 00:33:46,860
that's a contemporary look at scams in

700
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,230
Australia Thursday the 13th of February

701
00:33:53,690 --> 00:33:51,600
2020 and for more information just

702
00:33:56,510 --> 00:33:53,700
follow the links in this week's show

703
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:06,230
[Music]

704
00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:11,220
so many books to read so many podcasts

705
00:34:29,370 --> 00:34:18,340
to listen to all those videos online the

706
00:34:31,650 --> 00:34:29,380
skeptic zone recommends it's not often I

707
00:34:35,130 --> 00:34:31,660
get the time to just listen to other

708
00:34:38,190 --> 00:34:35,140
podcasts I try I never miss an episode

709
00:34:41,730 --> 00:34:38,200
of skeptoid but don't tell Brian Dunning

710
00:34:45,390 --> 00:34:41,740
that sometimes I listen to true crime

711
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:45,400
podcasts they can be gripping books not

712
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:49,090
so much as for me anyway hearing the

713
00:34:54,030 --> 00:34:50,650
words is a better way for me to

714
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:54,040
assimilate information but just in the

715
00:35:00,510 --> 00:34:56,169
last week I was recommended a podcast

716
00:35:02,910 --> 00:35:00,520
from the USA called the dream not much

717
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:02,920
can be gleaned from the title it could

718
00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:06,010
relate to just about anything this

719
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:08,320
podcast well series one anyway is

720
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:13,540
devoted to M L M's let's multi-level

721
00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:16,480
marketing schemes you know the sort of

722
00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:19,270
thing sometimes called pyramid schemes

723
00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:22,120
this is where you get in on the ground

724
00:35:28,260 --> 00:35:25,060
level of a product say makeup or some

725
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:28,270
so-called health supplement and try to

726
00:35:35,250 --> 00:35:31,690
sell it or better yet fig you and the

727
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:35,260
company try to get other people friends

728
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:38,410
family anyone at all to come on board

729
00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:41,730
but under you as you move up the ladder

730
00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:44,470
the first episode of this podcast is

731
00:35:57,550 --> 00:35:55,360
Podcast host Jane Marie and her partner

732
00:36:00,700 --> 00:35:57,560
Dan Gallucci together with other

733
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:00,710
producers take a long hard look and

734
00:36:06,250 --> 00:36:03,890
sometimes a harrowing look at the MLM

735
00:36:08,110 --> 00:36:06,260
industry in the United States of course

736
00:36:11,310 --> 00:36:08,120
the concept is the same all over the

737
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:11,320
world and how they are in the end

738
00:36:17,770 --> 00:36:15,050
destined to fail fail that is for the

739
00:36:19,810 --> 00:36:17,780
people roped in on the ground level

740
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:19,820
but for those calling the shots at the

741
00:36:23,740 --> 00:36:21,650
top it's a different story

742
00:36:26,980 --> 00:36:23,750
have you ever heard of the aeroplane

743
00:36:29,580 --> 00:36:26,990
game this is where you get invited to a

744
00:36:32,050 --> 00:36:29,590
party oh bring lots of money with you

745
00:36:34,510 --> 00:36:32,060
thousands of dollars pounds eros

746
00:36:38,590 --> 00:36:34,520
whatever and buy a ticket for a plane

747
00:36:41,410 --> 00:36:38,600
ride that goes nowhere but if you can

748
00:36:45,010 --> 00:36:41,420
convince more people to join your flight

749
00:36:47,380 --> 00:36:45,020
you can get promoted to crew level then

750
00:36:50,350 --> 00:36:47,390
take a cut of the money they bring to

751
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:50,360
buy their ticket next level up and you

752
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:51,410
can be a co-pilot

753
00:36:58,930 --> 00:36:55,610
then pilot the catch more and more and

754
00:37:01,690 --> 00:36:58,940
more people and needed to be recruited

755
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:01,700
to keep the money coming in in order for

756
00:37:07,660 --> 00:37:04,370
everybody to move up the chain no

757
00:37:10,390 --> 00:37:07,670
pyramid in the end there are simply not

758
00:37:13,450 --> 00:37:10,400
enough people left to recruit and that's

759
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:13,460
when the game falls apart leaving many

760
00:37:20,110 --> 00:37:16,490
people thousands of dollars or whatever

761
00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:20,120
worse off this game is explained in

762
00:37:24,910 --> 00:37:22,910
detail including an interview of someone

763
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:24,920
who was caught up in it in the podcast

764
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:29,530
the dream series one looks at many MLMs

765
00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:32,000
going back decades and the real-life

766
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:35,270
effects on some of the family members of

767
00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:37,850
Jayne Murray in another episode one of

768
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:39,950
the producers even signs up to hopefully

769
00:37:46,270 --> 00:37:41,890
sell a range of what turns out to be

770
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:46,280
mediocre cosmetics but as good as series

771
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:49,610
one years I found that series two to be

772
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:52,390
every bit as good and of particular

773
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:55,550
interest to skeptics for this series

774
00:38:01,200 --> 00:37:58,210
takes a look at the wellness industry

775
00:38:04,799 --> 00:38:01,210
vitamins and supplements and

776
00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:04,809
to be frank snake oil here's a clip from

777
00:38:11,790 --> 00:38:09,670
episode 4 of series 2 last episode we

778
00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:11,800
heard from Catherine Price a science

779
00:38:15,569 --> 00:38:13,300
journalist who wrote a book called vitae

780
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:15,579
mania Catherines the woman who convinced

781
00:38:19,290 --> 00:38:17,440
Dan former lover of vitamins and

782
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:19,300
supplements to throw out all of his

783
00:38:23,490 --> 00:38:21,910
pills tinctures and powders and resync

784
00:38:24,809 --> 00:38:23,500
the amount of money and energy he was

785
00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:24,819
putting into his daily supplement

786
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:27,400
routine this was for two reasons one

787
00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:29,530
because he couldn't trust that all the

788
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:31,270
ingredients on the label were actually

789
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:33,730
in the supplement he was taking and two

790
00:38:37,859 --> 00:38:35,890
even if the ingredients were what the

791
00:38:39,450 --> 00:38:37,869
manufacturers claim they were there was

792
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:39,460
almost no chance that studies had been

793
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:40,930
done on each of these products that

794
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:42,880
could explain the efficacy or potential

795
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:44,290
side effects of what he was putting in

796
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:47,440
his body that lack of information was a

797
00:38:51,030 --> 00:38:49,359
result of a series of legislative wins

798
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:51,040
for the supplement industry that left

799
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:53,050
the FDA the government agency that's

800
00:38:58,380 --> 00:38:54,970
supposed to regulate these products with

801
00:39:01,829 --> 00:38:58,390
very little power to do so this rang a

802
00:39:05,190 --> 00:39:01,839
very loud and familiar Bell with me just

803
00:39:07,260 --> 00:39:05,200
like the USA Australia too has had laws

804
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:07,270
and regulations regarding so-called

805
00:39:11,579 --> 00:39:09,190
alternative medicine and dietary

806
00:39:15,329 --> 00:39:11,589
supplements watered down to such a

807
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:15,339
degree that almost anything no matter

808
00:39:21,289 --> 00:39:18,490
how far-fetched can be marketed or sold

809
00:39:24,599 --> 00:39:21,299
as some sort of cure in orbit named

810
00:39:27,569 --> 00:39:24,609
homeopathy is a prime example in any

811
00:39:30,150 --> 00:39:27,579
rigorous system this absurd travesty

812
00:39:32,670 --> 00:39:30,160
would never be allowed to be marketed or

813
00:39:35,670 --> 00:39:32,680
sold if any medical claims were made

814
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:35,680
whatsoever we also learn in this episode

815
00:39:41,309 --> 00:39:37,930
of why those peddling supplements in the

816
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:41,319
USA have such clout here's a clip

817
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:43,599
featuring Catherine Price the author of

818
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:46,450
Vital mania these dietary supplement

819
00:39:51,089 --> 00:39:48,970
industry groups did very smart things

820
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:51,099
like they they used all the dietary

821
00:39:55,950 --> 00:39:53,170
supplement stores in the country which

822
00:39:58,020 --> 00:39:55,960
obviously had a vested interest in being

823
00:39:59,819 --> 00:39:58,030
able to sell more products as basically

824
00:40:01,579 --> 00:39:59,829
a little outposts where consumers could

825
00:40:03,839 --> 00:40:01,589
come in and sign petitions to Congress

826
00:40:05,609 --> 00:40:03,849
do you know fighting back against the

827
00:40:07,770 --> 00:40:05,619
suppose and things the FDA was doing

828
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:07,780
they would give discounts if he wrote to

829
00:40:11,339 --> 00:40:09,730
Congress members they would shroud you

830
00:40:13,710 --> 00:40:11,349
know certain areas of the store in black

831
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:13,720
- supposedly show you what was going to

832
00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:15,250
happen if the FDA

833
00:40:21,180 --> 00:40:17,710
got its way my favorite example was this

834
00:40:24,330 --> 00:40:21,190
1993 ad that was put on by a supplement

835
00:40:26,430 --> 00:40:24,340
lobbying group that starts with us like

836
00:40:27,870 --> 00:40:26,440
black screen and the SWAT team jumping

837
00:40:32,580 --> 00:40:27,880
out of the back of a van with scary

838
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:32,590
music and they run up the stairs of this

839
00:40:37,410 --> 00:40:34,810
mansion and then they confront this man

840
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,420
in his bathrobe you know guns are drawn

841
00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:39,280
and the man turns around and it turns

842
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:41,110
out that it's Mel Gibson and he's got a

843
00:40:45,620 --> 00:40:43,090
bottle of vitamins in his hand and he

844
00:40:53,660 --> 00:40:45,630
says something essentially this is

845
00:41:02,070 --> 00:40:57,990
vitamin C you know like in oranges and

846
00:41:04,890 --> 00:41:02,080
then this screen cuts to black preying

847
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:04,900
on people's fear of big government big

848
00:41:10,170 --> 00:41:07,650
father the irony is that large

849
00:41:12,290 --> 00:41:10,180
multinationals are responsible for many

850
00:41:15,930 --> 00:41:12,300
products in the vitamin and supplement

851
00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:15,940
game but getting back to watering down

852
00:41:21,630 --> 00:41:19,150
regulations is one last clip from this

853
00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:21,640
episode that could have been written for

854
00:41:25,890 --> 00:41:24,340
Australia another thing that the bill

855
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:25,900
said is that companies are only required

856
00:41:30,780 --> 00:41:28,720
to send the FDA information that

857
00:41:33,180 --> 00:41:30,790
indicates why they believe the new

858
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:33,190
ingredients will be safe and they only

859
00:41:38,580 --> 00:41:35,170
need to do it 75 days prior to the

860
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:38,590
product going to market now it's

861
00:41:43,890 --> 00:41:41,010
actually loosened now you don't have to

862
00:41:47,550 --> 00:41:43,900
send in anything you just have to have

863
00:41:49,350 --> 00:41:47,560
it on hand that you know that you like

864
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:49,360
in your own filing cabinet you need to

865
00:41:53,070 --> 00:41:51,490
have a piece of paper that says this is

866
00:41:54,990 --> 00:41:53,080
where our product works this is why we

867
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:55,000
believe our products works this is from

868
00:42:00,300 --> 00:41:58,090
the study just like you saying I think

869
00:42:02,430 --> 00:42:00,310
this works right I guess it would have

870
00:42:03,930 --> 00:42:02,440
to be convincing to the FDA if you had

871
00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:03,940
gone to court or something like that but

872
00:42:09,510 --> 00:42:06,880
no one does so it doesn't matter this is

873
00:42:11,370 --> 00:42:09,520
from the FDA you are responsible for

874
00:42:13,710 --> 00:42:11,380
determining what information provides

875
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:13,720
the basis for your conclusion that's

876
00:42:18,090 --> 00:42:14,760
terrifying

877
00:42:20,490 --> 00:42:18,100
amazing if you ever visit a pharmacy in

878
00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:20,500
Australia look at the products on sale

879
00:42:26,070 --> 00:42:23,320
they will have printed on them somewhere

880
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:26,080
normally in small print either aust-r

881
00:42:35,350 --> 00:42:29,090
that's a UST

882
00:42:37,090 --> 00:42:35,360
for regulated or Aust l4 listed hostile

883
00:42:40,350 --> 00:42:37,100
products only need in theory to have

884
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:40,360
some sort of evidence of efficacy in

885
00:42:45,970 --> 00:42:43,490
practice many are not even checked by

886
00:42:52,810 --> 00:42:45,980
the TGA the therapeutics Goods

887
00:42:56,140 --> 00:42:52,820
Administration this podcast at times

888
00:42:57,790 --> 00:42:56,150
gets very personal at times alarming but

889
00:42:58,570 --> 00:42:57,800
at all times entertaining and

890
00:43:01,330 --> 00:42:58,580
educational

891
00:43:04,780 --> 00:43:01,340
from multi-level marketing in series 1

892
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:04,790
to the wellness industry in series 2 the

893
00:43:12,970 --> 00:43:11,570
skeptics own recommends the dream for

894
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:12,980
more information about this podcast

895
00:43:17,980 --> 00:43:15,050
follow the link in this week's show

896
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:17,990
notes or simply search for the dream

897
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:21,410
podcast with thanks to Michelle because

898
00:43:24,410 --> 00:43:22,010
MA

899
00:43:34,569 --> 00:43:24,420
for recommending it to me

900
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:37,670
i'm mick west in my podcast tells from

901
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:38,910
the rabbit-hole i have extended

902
00:43:42,589 --> 00:43:40,290
conversations with people who have been

903
00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:42,599
involved in conspiracy culture i did

904
00:43:45,319 --> 00:43:44,070
this for a couple of reasons firstly

905
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:45,329
because it's really interesting these

906
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:47,010
people have great stories about how they

907
00:43:50,569 --> 00:43:48,720
fell down the conspiracy theory rabbit

908
00:43:52,370 --> 00:43:50,579
hole while they did down there and what

909
00:43:53,569 --> 00:43:52,380
it was that helped them out sometimes i

910
00:43:54,980 --> 00:43:53,579
also talk to people to investigate

911
00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:54,990
conspiracy theories and they have

912
00:43:58,849 --> 00:43:56,520
equally fascinating stories from the

913
00:44:00,109 --> 00:43:58,859
other side secondly I want to understand

914
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:00,119
how best to prevent the spread of

915
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:01,530
conspiracy theories and misinformation

916
00:44:06,109 --> 00:44:03,599
which is an increasing problem in a time

917
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:06,119
when alternative media is exploding the

918
00:44:09,859 --> 00:44:07,530
best way to do this is to communicate

919
00:44:12,020 --> 00:44:09,869
effectively with the people involved and

920
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:12,030
the best way to do that with a nice long

921
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:15,210
chat check it out tales from the rabbit

922
00:44:26,609 --> 00:44:18,250
hole TFG RH com

923
00:44:36,829 --> 00:44:31,600
years may not spooky action at a

924
00:44:43,770 --> 00:44:41,370
Billu here hi Joe how I am I'm good well

925
00:44:44,790 --> 00:44:43,780
god he always amazes me I know look I

926
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:44,800
was just about I was on my way to my

927
00:44:49,380 --> 00:44:46,570
lamb I was about to week there too and

928
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:49,390
but look what was it like lamb - oh and

929
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:51,040
what's it like all I don't know yet cuz

930
00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:52,480
I'm here talking to you I know we're

931
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:54,070
both here we should be using that's what

932
00:44:58,320 --> 00:44:56,290
we do for you the listener now what do a

933
00:45:01,320 --> 00:44:58,330
ward you gave was I gave the bent spoon

934
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:01,330
award and now what I want to know was

935
00:45:04,349 --> 00:45:03,130
were the people have worked on that SBS

936
00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:04,359
show the ones that used to work on the

937
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:06,910
ABC show that almost won a bin spoon no

938
00:45:15,890 --> 00:45:09,490
no no although we have awarded the bent

939
00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:15,900
spoon to an ABC show which was about no

940
00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:18,820
no no Richard Saunders would know the

941
00:45:23,070 --> 00:45:20,020
names there had been some things on

942
00:45:25,380 --> 00:45:23,080
Wi-Fi the ABCs done so so was any of the

943
00:45:29,579 --> 00:45:25,390
show much use as far as a science sugar

944
00:45:32,670 --> 00:45:29,589
I have to say I haven't watched you know

945
00:45:34,890 --> 00:45:32,680
a fair amount of the show I I don't

946
00:45:36,450 --> 00:45:34,900
inherently have a but so in case the

947
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:36,460
listeners aren't weird with the

948
00:45:38,970 --> 00:45:37,599
listeners be aware of the show that

949
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:38,980
we're talking about they get it up that

950
00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:40,450
the the name of the SBS show that we're

951
00:45:43,980 --> 00:45:41,710
talking about the one the bit spoon

952
00:45:47,099 --> 00:45:43,990
award is called it is medicine or myth

953
00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:47,109
which was which aired this year it's an

954
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:49,920
eight part series and a panel of judges

955
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:53,609
choose amongst a range of home remedies

956
00:45:59,579 --> 00:45:56,650
and then whichever one they think has

957
00:46:02,400 --> 00:45:59,589
some potential to be useful for for

958
00:46:04,859 --> 00:46:02,410
humans or humanity then is subjected to

959
00:46:06,210 --> 00:46:04,869
a trial of someone you mentioned I was

960
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:06,220
thinking how are they going to get that

961
00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:09,520
passed the ethics committee is a was at

962
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:13,060
a charcoal charcoal holders for poor

963
00:46:16,260 --> 00:46:14,290
funnel-web spider bytez

964
00:46:18,690 --> 00:46:16,270
which is a pretty severe poisonous bite

965
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:18,700
so you'd be testing it on animals or

966
00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:20,890
something actually it was actually the

967
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:24,190
the person who was promoting this enough

968
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:26,950
is the naturopath Barbra O'Neill who has

969
00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:29,810
recently been banned by the hoc

970
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:33,600
but the you know the claim was that she

971
00:46:37,010 --> 00:46:34,710
claimed that her daughter had been

972
00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:37,020
written by a funnel-web spider six times

973
00:46:41,660 --> 00:46:40,140
and for start you got to stop her

974
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:41,670
playing around the Guardian where she's

975
00:46:47,630 --> 00:46:44,160
doing that well exactly and she claimed

976
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:47,640
that she she applied this this charcoal

977
00:46:51,860 --> 00:46:50,610
poultice to the bite because you know

978
00:46:53,660 --> 00:46:51,870
they didn't have a car and they couldn't

979
00:46:55,070 --> 00:46:53,670
get to a hospital and so on and that her

980
00:46:58,700 --> 00:46:55,080
daughter was absolutely fine and had no

981
00:47:00,380 --> 00:46:58,710
no problems now you know by my

982
00:47:02,150 --> 00:47:00,390
scientific mind when someone makes a

983
00:47:03,980 --> 00:47:02,160
claim like that is to say well first of

984
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:03,990
all was it really a funnel-web spider

985
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:07,770
was it six times was it six times and

986
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:09,930
various other questions of you know what

987
00:47:15,380 --> 00:47:12,210
what really happened here but suppose I

988
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:15,390
say look at the people presented were of

989
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:17,370
course of dubious but nonetheless I

990
00:47:23,030 --> 00:47:19,920
think that as scientists our job is to

991
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:23,040
Orson scientific minded people our job

992
00:47:26,930 --> 00:47:25,290
is to actually test these claims and if

993
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:26,940
something does have plausibility and

994
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:28,650
some of these things could I have no

995
00:47:34,340 --> 00:47:30,810
problem with them being tested the

996
00:47:36,530 --> 00:47:34,350
reason we awarded the spoon to to

997
00:47:39,260 --> 00:47:36,540
medicine or MIT this year particularly

998
00:47:40,970 --> 00:47:39,270
the producers of the show is that the

999
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:40,980
manner in which the products were tested

1000
00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:43,890
really did not conform to what would -

1001
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:45,390
what a scientist would consider to be a

1002
00:47:50,330 --> 00:47:48,690
rigorous methodology so ways that would

1003
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:50,340
reduce bias that would enable us to

1004
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:51,930
really know whether the reason people

1005
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:53,730
were gaining a benefit from the

1006
00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:55,050
particular treatment was because the

1007
00:48:01,130 --> 00:47:56,910
treatment itself was working whether it

1008
00:48:03,740 --> 00:48:01,140
was just for SIBO so it really was more

1009
00:48:05,390 --> 00:48:03,750
good TV rather than rigorous science so

1010
00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:05,400
do you think they'll reply to getting

1011
00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:06,960
the award at all what do the recipients

1012
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:08,520
normally do that they normally snap back

1013
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:10,140
they get snarky on Twitter well it

1014
00:48:14,990 --> 00:48:13,410
really depends on the recipient you know

1015
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:15,000
we've had some people who have become

1016
00:48:19,340 --> 00:48:17,370
very naughty and and sort of feel very

1017
00:48:20,180 --> 00:48:19,350
slighted by having been awarded the

1018
00:48:22,599 --> 00:48:20,190
spoon

1019
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:22,609
so people wear it as a badge of pride

1020
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:25,049
but generally they tend to go fairly

1021
00:48:29,539 --> 00:48:28,079
quiet and you know just try and let it

1022
00:48:31,549 --> 00:48:29,549
sail under the radar

1023
00:48:33,799 --> 00:48:31,559
let's talk skeptical fashions here

1024
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:33,809
tonight you're owing a wonderful sort of

1025
00:48:41,180 --> 00:48:36,510
a short evening dress in a sort of a

1026
00:48:43,730 --> 00:48:41,190
royal blue color electric blue yeah I'm

1027
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:43,740
a big fan of it there yeah thank you but

1028
00:48:47,630 --> 00:48:46,170
what colors are wear it did there's a it

1029
00:48:49,789 --> 00:48:47,640
is Melbourne so bright colors are

1030
00:48:52,609 --> 00:48:49,799
normally the go we have a lot of people

1031
00:48:54,799 --> 00:48:52,619
in fashionable Melbourne black we have a

1032
00:48:55,370 --> 00:48:54,809
few interesting at sooner Aceh doctor

1033
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:55,380
Sieracki

1034
00:49:02,980 --> 00:48:57,690
always looks fabulous she's wearing a

1035
00:49:06,140 --> 00:49:02,990
lovely green ensemble I know I know and

1036
00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:06,150
we have a life pink actually I see a lot

1037
00:49:11,299 --> 00:49:09,420
of pink shirts it seems to be the colour

1038
00:49:12,770 --> 00:49:11,309
for the men tonight look I think you'll

1039
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:12,780
find that salmon and a lot of people

1040
00:49:15,770 --> 00:49:14,130
have got the idea from what Leonard did

1041
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:15,780
more used to wear in the insert job

1042
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:17,609
series that kind of makes a lot of sense

1043
00:49:20,990 --> 00:49:18,930
that people here would be inspired by

1044
00:49:22,910 --> 00:49:21,000
Leonard Nimoy oh yeah like I said it

1045
00:49:25,309 --> 00:49:22,920
Mary Chapman and a new more New Year as

1046
00:49:27,289 --> 00:49:25,319
I like to say also people listen to the

1047
00:49:29,329 --> 00:49:27,299
in research off podcast where they take

1048
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:29,339
an episode of insert job from the 70s

1049
00:49:35,450 --> 00:49:31,529
each week and then actually look into

1050
00:49:37,010 --> 00:49:35,460
it's great show oh yeah did you ever

1051
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:37,020
watch the insert off show and it got

1052
00:49:44,180 --> 00:49:41,760
repeated in Australia in the early 90s I

1053
00:49:45,620 --> 00:49:44,190
had a TV from a very young age and I

1054
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:45,630
don't know how I missed that one if you

1055
00:49:49,609 --> 00:49:47,250
should be something after news channel 7

1056
00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:49,619
I think it was but yeah and we're

1057
00:49:53,980 --> 00:49:51,710
watching the Curiosity chair

1058
00:49:55,390 --> 00:49:53,990
yeah well people call it the door and a

1059
00:49:57,180 --> 00:49:55,400
paranormal television because letting

1060
00:49:58,359 --> 00:49:57,190
them learn chemical killer beez

1061
00:50:00,579 --> 00:49:58,369
earthquakes

1062
00:50:02,410 --> 00:50:00,589
plants that can talk it could be great

1063
00:50:04,690 --> 00:50:02,420
movie well one of the the plants that

1064
00:50:07,359 --> 00:50:04,700
can talk one was a 70s one and they want

1065
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:07,369
to figure out well we'll do pain in a

1066
00:50:12,490 --> 00:50:09,530
person see if the and they got a scalpel

1067
00:50:15,010 --> 00:50:12,500
and just cut someone's thumb you know no

1068
00:50:16,420 --> 00:50:15,020
alcohol no nothing just and good the way

1069
00:50:17,859 --> 00:50:16,430
the scalpel came from I don't know like

1070
00:50:22,299 --> 00:50:17,869
something you wouldn't get past an

1071
00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:22,309
ethics committee and where are you work

1072
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:23,569
at the moment are you doing your in

1073
00:50:29,109 --> 00:50:26,089
research still so I do two things I am a

1074
00:50:33,099 --> 00:50:29,119
senior research nurse at Peter Mack and

1075
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:33,109
I look after lung cancer bowel cancer

1076
00:50:38,470 --> 00:50:36,050
and palliative care trials and I also

1077
00:50:39,460 --> 00:50:38,480
teach bioethics to medical students at

1078
00:50:41,410 --> 00:50:39,470
Monash University

1079
00:50:42,460 --> 00:50:41,420
now what's one of your mind games you

1080
00:50:43,930 --> 00:50:42,470
might play with them when you're

1081
00:50:45,460 --> 00:50:43,940
teaching them ethics like what what is a

1082
00:50:47,309 --> 00:50:45,470
quandary you might give them and then

1083
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:47,319
have a chat to them about later you know

1084
00:50:52,569 --> 00:50:50,690
about teaching ethics is getting people

1085
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:52,579
to understand that there are no right

1086
00:50:57,309 --> 00:50:55,490
answers but if you believe really

1087
00:50:59,680 --> 00:50:57,319
strongly that the way you're going to do

1088
00:51:02,079 --> 00:50:59,690
something is the right way you better

1089
00:51:04,930 --> 00:51:02,089
have a good argument for why you think

1090
00:51:07,089 --> 00:51:04,940
you can justify it so if you've got a

1091
00:51:09,430 --> 00:51:07,099
bit of a trolley problem going on and

1092
00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:09,440
you think it would be best to you know

1093
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:12,319
give the kidney to you know a particular

1094
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:15,530
person or or not you just need to be

1095
00:51:20,049 --> 00:51:17,930
able to tell us why you think that

1096
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:20,059
look look just being the devil's

1097
00:51:22,750 --> 00:51:21,170
advocate he I'm sure there would have

1098
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:22,760
been a couple of third reich scientists

1099
00:51:26,049 --> 00:51:24,079
have could have given you very good

1100
00:51:28,029 --> 00:51:26,059
explanations as to why they were doing

1101
00:51:30,279 --> 00:51:28,039
this stuff using the now discredited

1102
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:30,289
science of eugenics but back then they

1103
00:51:33,789 --> 00:51:31,730
will to go i'm up science backs me up

1104
00:51:35,769 --> 00:51:33,799
oh look absolutely and in fact teaching

1105
00:51:38,109 --> 00:51:35,779
research ethics and talking about nazi

1106
00:51:40,779 --> 00:51:38,119
research is a topic that I really find

1107
00:51:43,089 --> 00:51:40,789
important to talk to students about one

1108
00:51:45,700 --> 00:51:43,099
of the things that is a common problem

1109
00:51:48,069 --> 00:51:45,710
that we have is whether or not we can

1110
00:51:49,359 --> 00:51:48,079
actually use research that but not send

1111
00:51:51,279 --> 00:51:49,369
was going to ask you get to the high

1112
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:51,289
altitude research testing that they did

1113
00:51:56,109 --> 00:51:53,210
in in the camps where people actually

1114
00:51:57,490 --> 00:51:56,119
died now is the science actually usable

1115
00:51:58,990 --> 00:51:57,500
here because I remember calculus you

1116
00:52:00,430 --> 00:51:59,000
said a lot of it to be junk science they

1117
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:00,440
weren't writing it down properly but is

1118
00:52:05,980 --> 00:52:03,010
that stuff useful well actually you know

1119
00:52:08,079 --> 00:52:05,990
it's it's actually questionable how

1120
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:08,089
useful some of that Nazi research was

1121
00:52:11,410 --> 00:52:09,890
because you know a lot of people have

1122
00:52:13,299 --> 00:52:11,420
this mindset that first of all there's a

1123
00:52:15,940 --> 00:52:13,309
couple of aspects there first of all you

1124
00:52:17,620 --> 00:52:15,950
kind of got to think well can we even if

1125
00:52:20,289 --> 00:52:17,630
it was even if it was really really high

1126
00:52:21,579 --> 00:52:20,299
quality research in victory can we use

1127
00:52:23,620 --> 00:52:21,589
that research and there is a

1128
00:52:25,950 --> 00:52:23,630
long-standing ethical debate around

1129
00:52:28,589 --> 00:52:25,960
whether we are justified in using

1130
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:28,599
research that came about because of

1131
00:52:34,269 --> 00:52:31,010
crime as effectively crimes against

1132
00:52:36,220 --> 00:52:34,279
humanity once I was George you're up

1133
00:52:38,890 --> 00:52:36,230
about this and he came down that at

1134
00:52:40,569 --> 00:52:38,900
least if it is used those people that

1135
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:40,579
died under horrible circumstances their

1136
00:52:44,650 --> 00:52:42,410
lives haven't been wasted that's what he

1137
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:44,660
said there's a common argument which I

1138
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:47,119
have at times being swayed by that these

1139
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:50,170
days I read an interesting paper by a

1140
00:52:55,210 --> 00:52:52,970
bioethicist whose name escapes me but

1141
00:52:58,839 --> 00:52:55,220
essentially his argument was that there

1142
00:53:02,200 --> 00:52:58,849
are certain there are certain crimes and

1143
00:53:03,140 --> 00:53:02,210
certain certain what I guess we could

1144
00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:03,150
call

1145
00:53:09,140 --> 00:53:05,210
things that have been done to humanity

1146
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:09,150
that meet the category of being so so

1147
00:53:13,370 --> 00:53:11,490
diabolically the word of domination or

1148
00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:13,380
not an abomination that is exactly the

1149
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:15,569
word he used they they are such an

1150
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:18,480
abomination that not that that in order

1151
00:53:23,059 --> 00:53:20,400
for that research to be to the use of

1152
00:53:24,829 --> 00:53:23,069
that research to be justified it the

1153
00:53:27,019 --> 00:53:24,839
benefit you would get from using that

1154
00:53:29,329 --> 00:53:27,029
research would have to outweigh the

1155
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:29,339
abomination that was done by conducting

1156
00:53:34,190 --> 00:53:32,880
the research so that is an ethical

1157
00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:34,200
conundrum because then you got to do the

1158
00:53:39,470 --> 00:53:37,049
scales and yeah that's what we do in

1159
00:53:42,410 --> 00:53:39,480
ethics is weighing up our benefits and

1160
00:53:44,809 --> 00:53:42,420
risks and so on but then the other the

1161
00:53:47,180 --> 00:53:44,819
other argument that is made around using

1162
00:53:49,730 --> 00:53:47,190
this research is people often say well

1163
00:53:51,710 --> 00:53:49,740
the Nazis were so rigorous they were so

1164
00:53:54,470 --> 00:53:51,720
ordered and methodological and they kept

1165
00:53:57,140 --> 00:53:54,480
such and amira good notes but in fact

1166
00:53:59,029 --> 00:53:57,150
what we what we have found one that

1167
00:54:01,039 --> 00:53:59,039
would not me personally other people

1168
00:54:02,930 --> 00:54:01,049
who've investigated this is that in fact

1169
00:54:06,259 --> 00:54:02,940
the quality of their research was

1170
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:06,269
actually not very good so while many

1171
00:54:09,890 --> 00:54:08,160
would say oh you know we should utilize

1172
00:54:11,180 --> 00:54:09,900
this research where you personally we

1173
00:54:12,620 --> 00:54:11,190
could never conduct a lot of these

1174
00:54:14,299 --> 00:54:12,630
experiments today because no ethics

1175
00:54:17,109 --> 00:54:14,309
committee would ever allow it but in

1176
00:54:20,839 --> 00:54:17,119
fact we really can't rely on that data

1177
00:54:23,450 --> 00:54:20,849
as as being a high enough quality that

1178
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:23,460
it that we could justify using it now I

1179
00:54:27,739 --> 00:54:25,920
find it a really fascinating argument

1180
00:54:29,630 --> 00:54:27,749
and I think you know we always we'd

1181
00:54:31,430 --> 00:54:29,640
always talk about the Nazi research but

1182
00:54:34,489 --> 00:54:31,440
in fact there was research conducted by

1183
00:54:36,410 --> 00:54:34,499
the Japanese by the American Manchuria

1184
00:54:39,140 --> 00:54:36,420
yes you know if we think about the

1185
00:54:41,269 --> 00:54:39,150
Tuskegee experiments that the Americans

1186
00:54:43,009 --> 00:54:41,279
performed on on African Americans

1187
00:54:45,710 --> 00:54:43,019
without their knowledge that was

1188
00:54:48,559 --> 00:54:45,720
properly done science wasn't actually

1189
00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:48,569
the tusky research was actually you know

1190
00:54:52,609 --> 00:54:51,089
yes it was properly done but an if

1191
00:54:54,890 --> 00:54:52,619
listeners aren't familiar I highly

1192
00:54:56,749 --> 00:54:54,900
recommend looking it up essentially the

1193
00:54:58,160 --> 00:54:56,759
the Department of Health in Farkle

1194
00:54:59,509 --> 00:54:58,170
correctly in America were interested in

1195
00:55:01,230 --> 00:54:59,519
looking at the natural course of

1196
00:55:03,390 --> 00:55:01,240
syphilis infections

1197
00:55:06,180 --> 00:55:03,400
and they they followed a group of

1198
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:06,190
african-american men to see how syphilis

1199
00:55:09,420 --> 00:55:07,690
essentially the natural course of

1200
00:55:11,220 --> 00:55:09,430
syphilis in these men so they basically

1201
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:11,230
didn't treat them and just watched out

1202
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:13,090
well well the thing was when they were

1203
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:15,130
first diagnosed when they first sort of

1204
00:55:20,370 --> 00:55:17,850
recruited these men there wasn't a

1205
00:55:21,930 --> 00:55:20,380
treatment available at the time but

1206
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:21,940
during the course of conducting the

1207
00:55:25,980 --> 00:55:23,710
experiment a treatment for syphilis

1208
00:55:28,890 --> 00:55:25,990
became available and these researchers

1209
00:55:30,780 --> 00:55:28,900
never told the men who were involved and

1210
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:30,790
they they so they didn't offer them a

1211
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:32,770
treatment that was now available to them

1212
00:55:37,110 --> 00:55:35,290
I know that Bill Clinton apologized for

1213
00:55:39,540 --> 00:55:37,120
this whether reparations given to them

1214
00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:39,550
I'm actually I'm actually not sure about

1215
00:55:44,190 --> 00:55:41,910
reparations but what I do know is that

1216
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:44,200
african-americans are because of things

1217
00:55:49,410 --> 00:55:47,110
like the Tuskegee experiments and also

1218
00:55:52,590 --> 00:55:49,420
if you look at the story of Henrietta

1219
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:52,600
Lacks and the way her body was used for

1220
00:55:56,940 --> 00:55:55,090
science without her consent the African

1221
00:55:59,310 --> 00:55:56,950
American community quite justifiably

1222
00:56:00,900 --> 00:55:59,320
have had a long-standing distrust of the

1223
00:56:03,780 --> 00:56:00,910
medical community and of scientists

1224
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:03,790
which unfortunately you know is another

1225
00:56:07,770 --> 00:56:06,160
factor that plays into why there are

1226
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:07,780
poor health outcomes because if your

1227
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:09,310
community doesn't trust the medical

1228
00:56:13,020 --> 00:56:11,170
profession you're going to be less

1229
00:56:14,610 --> 00:56:13,030
likely to actually seek out medical care

1230
00:56:17,010 --> 00:56:14,620
I never mind the fact the medical care

1231
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:17,020
in America is horrendously expensive but

1232
00:56:21,660 --> 00:56:19,330
I think we the the research community

1233
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:21,670
has a real responsibility to rebuild

1234
00:56:26,430 --> 00:56:24,880
that trust particularly you know within

1235
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:26,440
the Australian community our indigenous

1236
00:56:33,180 --> 00:56:29,050
population that have also been affected

1237
00:56:34,230 --> 00:56:33,190
by these kinds of abuses of power and of

1238
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:34,240
trust

1239
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:36,370
so it's something is you can hear it so

1240
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:41,530
I feel very and jo21 why not join this

1241
00:56:45,510 --> 00:56:43,210
up is there a website where these things

1242
00:56:47,250 --> 00:56:45,520
is discussed and the all the things are

1243
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:47,260
mentioned so we can school ourselves

1244
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:48,610
about is that one you could recommend to

1245
00:56:54,090 --> 00:56:52,720
it off the top of my head I think that I

1246
00:56:57,180 --> 00:56:54,100
can't think of anything specifically

1247
00:56:58,380 --> 00:56:57,190
website wise but but I highly recommend

1248
00:57:01,080 --> 00:56:58,390
reading The Immortal Life of Henrietta

1249
00:57:03,250 --> 00:57:01,090
Lacks by Rebecca Skloot which is one of

1250
00:57:06,740 --> 00:57:03,260
the most outstanding

1251
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:06,750
representations and and and and that's

1252
00:57:13,250 --> 00:57:09,450
all about her certificate loss of

1253
00:57:14,510 --> 00:57:13,260
vehicles actually funnily enough I was

1254
00:57:16,130 --> 00:57:14,520
talking to some of the s to you the

1255
00:57:17,900 --> 00:57:16,140
other day skeptics guide to the universe

1256
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:17,910
and we were we were laughing about the

1257
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:19,050
difference between how Americans and

1258
00:57:24,830 --> 00:57:20,880
Australians pronounce serve I call for

1259
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:24,840
me it's cervical yeah SSO it's all about

1260
00:57:28,370 --> 00:57:26,370
that so dig into that and have a look

1261
00:57:30,050 --> 00:57:28,380
because you and you and you'll think

1262
00:57:31,130 --> 00:57:30,060
going into it yeah I know this is what

1263
00:57:34,310 --> 00:57:31,140
I'm going to think but then when you

1264
00:57:36,140 --> 00:57:34,320
read it hmm absolutely absolutely highly

1265
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:36,150
recommended it'll also make you realize

1266
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:38,850
how much of the medical care that we now

1267
00:57:44,300 --> 00:57:41,040
benefit from is thanks to Henrietta

1268
00:57:45,770 --> 00:57:44,310
Lacks and her HeLa cells which century

1269
00:58:06,310 --> 00:57:45,780
is responsible for much of Medical

1270
00:58:14,180 --> 00:58:08,660
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1271
00:58:15,950 --> 00:58:14,190
sound and thank you to the crowd here in

1272
00:58:19,460 --> 00:58:15,960
Portland Oregon they were so impressed

1273
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:19,470
by my talk I can't tell you that they

1274
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:31,200
don't want me to leave the stage well

1275
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:33,570
next week's show lots more from Maynard

1276
00:58:39,260 --> 00:58:36,930
and skeptic on 2019 and some other

1277
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:39,270
interesting things but for now signing

1278
00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:41,010
off from Portland Oregon this is Richard

1279
00:58:59,420 --> 00:58:56,610
Saunders you've been listening to the

1280
00:59:06,320 --> 00:58:59,430
skeptic zone podcast please visit our

1281
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:06,330
website at wwlp.com tax and to access

1282
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:08,880
the back catalog of episodes going back

1283
00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:12,480
to 2008 you can follow the skeptic zone

1284
00:59:18,530 --> 00:59:16,140
podcast on twitter at skeptic zone visit

1285
00:59:19,390 --> 00:59:18,540
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1286
00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:19,400
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1287
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:22,110
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1288
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:25,470
via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone

1289
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:28,890
podcast is an independent production the

1290
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:30,570
views and opinions expressed on the

1291
00:59:35,060 --> 00:59:32,730
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1292
00:59:36,860 --> 00:59:35,070
of Australian skeptics or any other

1293
00:59:45,620 --> 00:59:36,870
skeptical organization

1294
00:59:50,039 --> 00:59:48,299
so if you'll indulge me for one second I

1295
00:59:51,900 --> 00:59:50,049
will do a live introduction to my own

1296
00:59:54,569 --> 00:59:51,910
podcast in fact Brian Dunning and I were